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QUESTION:

¿Cómo debería ser la carta orgánica de una organización cuyo objetivo sea fomentar el desarrollo y/o el uso de herramientas que permitan mejorar la democracia?

Motiva la pregunta la necesidad de una Constitución capaz de garantizar la democracia dentro de tales organizaciones que decidan implementarla. La misma también servirá como modelo o fuente de inspiración para nuevos documentos fundamentales.

Al redactar tu propuesta, recomendable es que considerés lo siguiente:

Hay que elegir un conjunto de reglas. Para facilitar el proceso de decisión es preferible tratar las reglas individualmente. Por eso enviá cada artículo por separado.
La Constitución debe basarse en la tecnología actual. Por favor, no recurrás a recursos no existentes.

Vote all the Answers you Agree on

Humanismo
by nacholabo

El humanismo es una doctrina que delata ingenuidad. No tiene una utilidad práctica en cuanto a soluciones de los problemas que plantea. No obstante se puede apelar a otro tipo de utilidad, y esto es, empalagar a sus filas de utopía y sembrar moral en espíritus que carecen de creencias religiosas
If you research it, you'll see that America's founders wisely had the government charter corporations to serve the public good. Corporations guided by the governing hand of the sovereign will of the people can be a fabulous engine for unleashing human creativity and mobilizing resources for the advancement of human good. The problem is that the system of representative democracy, a fabulous advance in the horse-and-buggy days, is no longer functional. When 536 elected individuals control the vast public budget, it's no wonder that corporations, designed to make profit, buy them off. What we need to do is to recognize that we are world citizen, that we are the sovereigns, and that we have the power to create global wiki-government literally of, by and for the people. At www.worldgovernment.org you will see that this process has already been started. It will evolve into an advanced kind of wiki-governance EarthOperatingSystem.net that brings out the highest and best wisdom of each individual and builds that wisdom into a consensus using advanced conflict-resolution tools to amalgamate the most powerful force in the world - the sovereign will of the people. In a wiki-governed world, if the corporations want to buy our vote, they'll have to buy off all of us - and more power to them! Take a look at our 5-minute video of the pioneer of a people-powered planet, first world citizen Garry Davis, at www.onefilms.com

Generation=1;
Recently 1 human beings voted on 2 possible solutions,
2 produced by 2 human being(s)
and 0 inherited from the previous generation.
Minumum time: 1 days;
Maximum time: 10 days

Propose an Answer to a Question

What is the origin of Profit?
by Patrick Anderson

Using the definition of profit as the difference between the Price a Consumer pays to buy an Object and the Costs the Owners of the Sources paid for that production:

Profit == Object_Consumer_Price - Source_Owner_Costs

Notice Profit is 'undefined' when the Object Consumer is simultaneously the Source Owner because the Owner of Sources is the Owner of Objects automatically - as a sort of "side effect" of his owning the Sources.

For example: If you own an apple tree, you must pay for all the costs to install, water, prune and harvest and any Wages to any workers you hire. But you can't pay Profit because you don't sell the fruit to yourself - you *already* own it.

Does this mean the origin of profit is the Consumers' lack of Ownership in the Sources of Production?

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Generation=3;
Recently 0 proposers, proposed 0 solutions.
There are also 2 inherited from the previous generation.
Minumum time: 1 days;
Maximum time: 7 days

Questions that reached unanimity

If you do not agree with tha answers you can reopen them, by adding other proposals.

is there a better phrase than 'open source democracy'? by jb555
Agreement found between: vilfredo Ed Pastore

Collaborative governance
e-Governance

This phrase is a nice transformation of "e-Democracy" to further imply that it is not simply an electronic add-on to existing (representative) democracy processes, but rather is an expansion of the "e" concept to actual governance.

See this description in Wikipedia (emphasis added):

Whilst e-Government has traditionally been understood as being centered around the operations of government, e-Governance is understood to extend the scope by including citizen engagement and participation in governance. As such, following in line with the OECD definition of e-Government, e-Governance can be defined as the use of ICTs as a tool to achieve better governance.

What is the solution to the banking crisis? by mbarkhau
Agreement found between: Mark vilfredo

The largest source of the problem is "Fiat" money and fractional reserve banking -- both of which create money out of thin air.

Real money has intrinsic value that is why in times past it was usually rare metals and gems. For the most part money is a universal barter commodity
example ... I have corn and want lumber the lumber guy wants a pig the pig farmer wants chickens the chicken farmer wants corn ... so I have to take my corn get a chicken(s) trade them to the pig farmer for the pig and then take the pig to the lumber guy to get the lumber.

instead of all that we use gold as a universal item we all agree has some value and use it to value the other items ... "I give the lumber guy the amount of gold that he needs to obtain a pig."

Since gold has a limited supply (at least it has to be mined or created) it can't simply be made from thin air its self regulating and more or less stable.

Our biggest problem comes from this disconnect of money from an actual commodity exasperated by the banks legal right to loan out 10 times what they have on deposit.

In short put money back on a commodity basis (get rid of the fiat money ) and increase the deposit to loan ratio to nearly 1:1

What venue should Metagovernment use for Meeting 6 by Ed Pastore
Agreement found between: Ed Pastore Thomas vilfredo

PiratePad; the same as we have used for the past couple of meetings.

What might be the role of Vilfredo in online democracy? by canderson
Agreement found between: vilfredo jb555

Maybe we could set up a mixture system.
I present here only an example. Suppose that in a system you have a difference between facts and positions. You could not make a fact and an positions compete. That would be like comparing apples and oranges instead. Facts should run their own Vilfredo question. And positions should run their own Vilfredo instance. Suppose you are speaking about abortion. The first would run a question like: "On the topic of Abortion, what are the important facts that should be considered when deciding what to legislate". The second would have a second question that would run pretty much like this: "given the facts agreed upon in ..., what should be decided on the topic of abortion".

The interesting thing would happen when people would not even agree on the facts.

At the moment the system would be quite clunky, as it would have to adapt to a website that is not divided into facts and positions questions. But if successful some changes might be made. What is important is that the changes would not have to be imposed on all the questions, but only on some.
Vilfredo should be used to ask well specified open questions. The resulting answer should then be applied if an agreement has been found in a reasonable number of generations. And if this is not the case the result (the Pareto Front of the solutions, in the last generation) should be inserted in a Condorcet Voting method that would define which solution to apply.

Why does Capitalism fail for most participants? by Patrick Anderson
Agreement found between: mbarkhau vilfredo canderson Patrick Anderson

We are in danger of creating two meta-questions, which seems to suggest a meta-meta-question is required, which is getting a bit silly. Vilfredo is a system for people with different views to find agreement, so we should be able to do it with just one meta-question. Out of the two candidates, '...about the system used to govern global economic activity...' seems more open and with less assumptions than '...about capitalism...', so we should ask this question (or an even more open one).

Should we abolish 'questions' and replace them with 'topics' or 'issues'? by canderson
Agreement found between: canderson vilfredo

This question is closed.
A new question, an open question, was posed: What should be the semantics of Vilfredo?, that should include this question as part of it.
The question was presented is in the room "Vilfredo".

Logo para Eudemocracia by battocchia
Agreement found between: hongo vilfredo

Hombrecitos con corona. Cada uno con la suya.

What can we do to make the participation and communication in metascore/megoverment better. by fabe
Agreement found between: vilfredo Ed Pastore OwenAmbur

Each project should hold a web presentation with a screen cast explaining the project. The presentation should be followed by an IRC meeting, and a couple of weeks where we should all discuss that project. Then we move to the next project.

Energy by canderson
Agreement found between: canderson vilfredo

position: As a society, we need to anticipate and accelerate change
To reduce energy demands and create good jobs through conservation and efficiency measures, so that an energy-efficient economy? exists before a climate crisis, is now urgent.
- Develop sustainable trades within this economy
- Develop renewable and alternative energy sources to phase out fossil fuel and nuclear power within fifty years.
- Focus on future energy and soft energy technologies.
argument against: energy conservation is the base creativity of life, it simply can't be planned at all Such programs may do more harm than good. Only narrow measures to reflect regret? in prices can work, as there is no generality to the problem of conservation. It requires many small and localized changes, and the larger programs simply result in wasted overall energy - which unlike potential energy, is calculable?. argument against: we can't accelerate the market To avoid a crisis requires expending energy to change the infrastructural capital (tools, devices) and instructional capital (training, habit?s). Since food production and incomes by which most buy food and shelter depend on fossil fuels, and since their use must be limited and at least become expensive, the market will take care of the problem. Canada is far behind. In Europe as of 2006-03, over 3 million households were using solar water heater?s. In Canada that is less than 1% as many but rising fast. argument for: governments often accelerate price changes It's government's job to accelerate and alter pricing. 1. Promote investments in energy conservation and the more efficient use of energy. We need to iron out the market imperfections which have impeded this, and spread the information which markets need to function properly, about the profitable opportunities in these fields. 2. Impose high and rising taxes on fossil fuels. Imagine a family whose house is soon to be condemnned, and to make matters worse, this family survives on a home based business. If the family is homeless they have no way to make money. - ergo they must save now, and buy a better house before their old one fails. It is much better for society if government forces society to "prepay" and "save" for the coming energy crunch before actual energy prices shoot to high. Bonus: If we can raise the price of fossil fuels through taxes we can reduce other taxes to compensate. 3. Require better urban planning: public transit?, anti-sprawl etc., are part of this. See eco-city, ICLEI, CEG and ECG.
Response to open question criticism:

This is not an open question. This 'question' is an experiment. Please give it special rules and do not force the question to be open.

The idea is to take some text produced by another e-democracy system (the I/P/A + wiki model) and see if we can take it further. A great thing about I/P/A + wiki is that it does a great job of mapping out the proposals/positions and the arguments for and against, allowing a 'judge' to make a really good decision. The problem is that it needs a 'judge', whereas Vilfredo has a really good democratic alternative to having a single human judge.

So this question is a quick experiment to see if the two systems can work together. If they can, then it will be a very powerful way of mapping out and deciding on policy positions. So please join me in the experiment. If it doesn't work, we haven't lost much.

What is the moral standing of non-human animals, and how does it differ from human animals (if there is a difference)? by chrisanderson
Agreement found between: vilfredo canderson

There is a difference in degree, not in kind, of the capacity for moral or ethical behaviour amongst different animals. The expression of the ethical imperative will appear more developed when the animal in question has better senses with which to perceive the world, and/or better memory to keep track of past actions of others.

But the capacity for moral behaviour is not the criteria for moral treatment. This is why we do not torture psychopaths. The criteria for moral treatment remain the capacity to experience pain, enjoy freedom and liberty, and other relevant properties.
There is a difference in degree, not in kind, of the capacity for moral or ethical behaviour amongst different animals. The expression of the ethical imperative will appear more developed when the animal in question has better senses with which to perceive the world, and/or better memory to keep track of past actions of others.

But the capacity for moral behaviour is not the criteria for moral treatment. This is why we do not torture psychopaths. The right to liberty is based on the capacity to enjoy freedom. The right to not be caused pain is based upon the capacity to feel pain. The right to not be killed is based on both of these capacities.
While"there is a difference in degree, not in kind, of the capacity for moral or ethical behaviour amongst different animals" this is not the dominant decision criteria. The environment in which we live determines more about these decisions. An urban person may be within their rights to demand their neighbours become vegan, this may be less reasonable in the Arctic.

Which kind of business without copyright? by dsperoni
Agreement found between: mbarkhau vilfredo

The situation will change radically. And there is not a single thing that will happen, but a mixture of things.
1. Distribution will become a commoditized business (amazon, itunes, etc.) available to all, without prior contract.
2. Some people will use publications not as a way to get money, but as a way to get fame. And then fame will bring them money in different ways.
3. The state might also subsidize some form of publishing.
If you believe in markets and you believe that art is something people desire and will pay for, the market will find a solution to this problem. Without copyright, the distributors can't be relied on to pay the artist, since once the work is made competition will drive profits down to zero.

This is an economic dilemma and the solution is simply, that if payment post production is not an option, it will have to be arranged pre production. For example artists may form organisations. The may produce works and publishers may bid on who gets the first access to the work. Copyright is not needed for this, as the artists can make all bidders sign a non-disclosure and non-publication agreements before even seeing the work. Essentially the first to market advantage and protection of contract law may provide enough of a foundation for this to work.

This is just to show, how a market may go about solving the problem of funding artists.

Under what form do you think that this kind of consensus building techinque, can be applied for a whole nation governance with maximum efficency? by individul.x
Agreement found between: OwenAmbur tom

A standard like Strategy Markup Language (StratML) should be used to: a) document on the Web the goals and objectives of all .gov agencies, and b) enable citizens, taxpayers, and other stakeholders not only to provide feedback but also to document their own goals and objectives.

Applications like Vilfredo should leverage StratML documents not only to enable consensus building but, more importantly, the allocation of resources required to accomplish shared objectives.

To the extent that such resources are not voluntarily contributed, relatively high degrees of consensus (high percentages of all voters) should be required to gather them by the force of law.

Would introducing open web based transactions using biometric smart card help? by krisdev
Agreement found between: vilfredo MichaelMaranda

Please rephrase the question as an open question. Not as a yes no question. Thanks

nombres posibles para la asociacion civil... by adRn
Agreement found between: adRn vilfredo

Eudemocracia

What are the different ways in which a citizen can interact with their government through the Internet? by geddon
Agreement found between: vilfredo Ed Pastore

The creation of a law can itself be made using some brainstorming through the civil society. Something similar is being done right now from Obama on the issue of egovernment
Through mashups built with that data and other sources such as Google Maps, as is being done with appsfordemocracy.org

Genre for a role-playing game campaign by Daniele
Agreement found between: vilfredo giovani

Considering the time travel, and taking some ideas from Star Trek, you could consider that althoug a person is only allowed to go back in time, bringing only his/her body and little more, they can bring knowledge.

This can change the course of history dramatically.

Now imagine a race of people who are able to travel back in time. Now add an external threat:
- the universe is about to explode/implode/whatever
So they send 500 scientists back in time of one generation. They are to go there to teach all the science in the last generation, thus permitting a big jump in science. This should permit to science to proceed faster. After the generation is over, again 500 scientists are sent back. And so on.

The scientists cannot be sent back more than 1 generation as the probability of going to the wrong place increases exponentially. So there is this need for this continuous loop, hoping that eventually science will proceed so much to permit to save the full universe. In this context the players are..., and need to ...

Of course the future will be very different from now:
- internet is more and more pervasive.
- Nanotechnologies are everywhere.
- It's very easy to record everything.
all the technologies that are about to have a breakthrough will have a breakthrough.

Note that the time travel machine will also bring the players for short adventure in alternative places, either because it does not work well, it was sabotaged, or the player need to jump away with no control of where they will arrive. Sometimes this could go vastly into the past, sometimes even in an alternative universe. In particular it could go into the land of the samurai, or even to Terry Pratchett's discworld. ( Of course this can bring a lot of confusion as characters from the very confusing Discworld might end up in the very strict land of the rising sun. Or viceversa. )

Note also that in the future, equality between the sex might be more real. And when the player jumps in a parallel universe might find themselves to have to a very unequal life style, to which they are unused.
Considering the time travel, and taking some ideas from Star Trek, you could consider that althoug a person is only allowed to go back in time, bringing only his/her body and little more, they can bring knowledge.

This can change the course of history dramatically.

Now imagine a race of people who are able to travel back in time. Now add an external threat:
- the universe is about to explode/implode/whatever
So they send 500 scientists back in time of one generation. They are to go there to teach all the science in the last generation, thus permitting a big jump in science. This should permit to science to proceed faster. After the generation is over, again 500 scientists are sent back. And so on.

The scientists cannot be sent back more than 1 generation as the probability of going to the wrong place increases exponentially. So there is this need for this continuous loop, hoping that eventually science will proceed so much to permit to save the full universe. In this context the players are..., and need to ...

Of course the future will be very different from now:
- internet is more and more pervasive.
- Nanotechnologies are everywhere.
- It's very easy to record everything.
all the technologies that are about to have a breakthrough will have a breakthrough.
Considering the time travel, and taking some ideas from Star Trek, you could consider that althoug a person is only allowed to go back in time, bringing only his/her body and little more, they can bring knowledge.

This can change the course of history dramatically.

Now imagine a race of people who are able to travel back in time.
Now add an external threat:
the universe is about to explode/implode/whatever.

So they send 500 scientists back in time of one generation. They are to go there to teach all the science in the last generation, thus permitting a big jump in science. This should permit to science to proceed faster. After the generation is over, again 500 scientists are sent back. And so on.

The scientists cannot be sent back more than 1 generation for ... [invent excuse].

So there is this need for this continuous loop, hoping that eventually science will proceed so much to permit to save the full universe.

In this context the players are..., and need to ...

Note that the time travel machine will also bring the players for short adventure in alternative places, either because it does not work well, it was sabotaged, or the player need to jump away with no control of where they will arrive. Sometimes this could go vastly into the past, sometimes even in an alternative universe. In particular it could go into the land of the samurai, or even to Terry Pratchett's discworld. ( Of course this can bring a lot of confusion as characters from the very confusing Discworld might end up in the very strict land of the rising sun. Or viceversa. )

Note also that in the future, equality between the sex might be more real. And when the player jumps in a parallel universe might find themselves to have to a very unequal life style, to which they are unused.

How should Pietro and Derek collaborate on developing Vilfredo? by Ford
Agreement found between: Ford vilfredo

- We start by using skype for long discussions, and stay in touch through email.
- Then Derek should join the metagov mailing list.
- To try to get a general overview of the things we want to do we should make a freemind mindmap of all the ideas we have, and post it online in a place where we both can access it.
- We should put Vilfredo on Bit bucket, to open source it.
- We should then post the plan of actions on metagovernment wiki, and on metagovernment mailing list trying to get some feedbacks.
- At some point Derek should come to Portugal and work from here.

Which is the best form of government? by Daniele
Agreement found between: vilfredo Ed Pastore

A (radically) transparent (radically) open government, based on the internet as a medium to generate a continuous flow of information between the citiziens, and where out of this flow of information the new laws are generated.

Let us write together a political science fiction story by vilfredo
Agreement found between: vilfredo jualvarez

... a beep woke him up. He knew that sound well. The mobile device was programmed to let him know every time someone made a new proposal in any subject of his field of expertise. No matter if it was posted in LA lunch time or Shanghai's breakfast. That kind of commitment is what earned him the reputation he had in the e-governace system.

Trying to clear his head from the confusion caused by several hours of good sleep, he picked the device, and by using its menus opened the shades in the bedroom. As the sun's light started bathing the room, he was surprised once again to see how much the city changed in the last 50 years. A warm feeling of pride and joy in his chest reminded him once again he had been an important part of that change. The feeling got warmer when he realized that most people around the world would have the same feeling when they woke. Once again, he felt connected and a part of it.

That nice feeling mutated quickly to surprise and a mix of anger and fear when he saw the message displayed in the holographic screen of his mobile device. His eyes opened wide and the breathing got deeper and faster. The message was short, but he couldn't help staring at it for several minutes, reading it through again and again as if the content could change eventually. But it never changed. It was very clear and it said: "Consensus reached for proposal #94739".
I think this idea is great! However, I'd say the first step is to propose a general high level plot of the story, and then we could make a collaborative effort in writing chapter by chapter.

What would be a universally-acceptable solution to the abortion dispute? by Ed Pastore
Agreement found between: vilfredo jb555 telmomenezes

A cultural change that does not criticises young women for getting pregnant.
Far more awareness, especially in young people, of birth control methods.

Obama has just released the torture memo. What would you suggest him to do? by vilfredo
Agreement found between: vilfredo ck99

Torture is a crime and as such must be handled in courts rather than being made to a political topic. Obama shouldn't be exempting any agents executing the torture, bystanders or high ranking government officials, it's not part of his job.

Which is the meaning of life? by battocchia
Agreement found between: battocchia vilfredo mbarkhau jb555

The meaning of life is whatever you want it to be. There is no inherent meaning, which is the beauty of it. The choice is yours to make.

A slogan for a physical ad about open source governance. by battocchia
Agreement found between: battocchia vilfredo jb555 Ed Pastore

I keep on thinking:
open source democracy
is actually the best! I disagreee that is too technical.
Most of people, by now, have had some information about open source projects, open source operating systems

How can the US improve its healthcare system? by jb555
Agreement found between: Ed Pastore vilfredo jb555

funding for potentially innovative community health programs, with an allocation per uninsured person in the community who participates in the program.

these could be run like charter schools are in the US, where new and potentially innovative proposals could be accepted and reviewed periodically.
We need to accept that people die.

In this society we have reached the point where we can keep a person alive for much longer their natural lifespan, by many costly, invasive technique.

While on the one hand the government could pay for the simple and curable illness.

There is a point after which we need to step back (at least from the government cures), and only offer pain reducing medications.

This can only be done by also changing the culture.
This is a bit a different proposal from others, but it has been used in China with great results.

In China when a person went to the doctor, the secretary of the doctor would give this person a ticket. Now each day the person had to go to the park to practice tai ji and qi gung. He would then have the paper stamped for the day. Once the person could prove that he has done tai ji for 7 days he would be allowed to see the doctor.

The reason behind this is that there are many illments that can be treated with just some simple exercises (how complicated or refined can the tai ji of a person who never did tai ji be?). Many people would get well just by doing those exercises. And then the doctor could treat the ones that really needed his attention.

Althugh I wouldn't necessarily suggest this exact system, I think the US could learn from it a lot.

For example there could be huge economical discounts for people having simple illness, if they could prove thatthey were taking care of themselves (doing exercise every morning, for example).

This would lower the pressure on the health care system, which would then be better in responding to the others.
reward hospitals for improving outcomes and for lowering costs.

there is a very effective energy-conservation plan in Europe that pays back the *eldest child* of the household $0.50 for every dollar of energy not used. the $5 in return for reduced energy use is not much to the average household, but to the average 10yo child it's pretty valuable. And a motivated child can be very effective.

We could motivate hospitals to reduce costs by rewarding cost-efficiency AND outcomes rather than just outcomes alone. This has been tried with medicare/medicaid, but it could be expanded.

How do you balance the Love of Nature with the Power of the Internet? by geddon
Agreement found between: geddon vilfredo

There is no simple answer, as it really relies on the individual and the moment in time. Essentially we need time off from work, and we need to spend this time in nature. So a good way is to work on the internet, but then spend as much time off work, in nature. Living in nature, breathing in nature, being far away from the city, the computers, and the internet

What aspects of UserVoice.com would be helpful for Vilfredo? by geddon
Agreement found between: jb555 geddon vilfredo

The ability to sign in using Facebook, OpenID, etc.
A list of proposals and votes on the user page.

Suppose there were no copyright laws. How would the world be different? by vilfredo
Agreement found between: vilfredo mbarkhau jb555

True art would still mostly happen because true art comes from a human necessity to express some deep parts of its soul.

What questions should be added in the FAQ? by vilfredo
Agreement found between: vilfredo jb555 Ed Pastore

What is the time frame allocated to a generation ? In other words, how long does one generation take ? Should I be checking back hourly, daily, etc. ?
OK, so I just created a proposal and it says that other people have also written some proposals. Where are they? Why can't I see them?
I found a question I'm interested in, and it's in the endorsement phase. How do I make a proposal?
What do the icons (apple, tree, etc.) represent?

What is the most plausible way for humanity to tackle universal issues that traverse all boundaries? by imbroglio
Agreement found between: imbroglio vilfredo

We need tools to create huge brain storm. We already have some of those, wiki, the blogsphere, even this discussion board can become one.
This website, a Vilfredo goes to Athens, could be used. If enough people sign up. We don't need to be accepted by governance. This website just works as a brainstorming device. The results get then twitted, and blogged, and echoed to the rest of the people
A universal governance model that may define collective action through rational debate.

I am buying a new house. How should I open up the renovation process? by vilfredo
Agreement found between: vilfredo Ed Pastore

Though it is not ideally suited to the task, a wiki may be the easiest solution. You could post each aspect of the renovation as a separate page, and then have the home page bring all those separate pages together as a cohesive whole.

Let us decide when, where and what we should do this summer by vilfredo
Agreement found between: vilfredo bob

In June/July/August, Chris and Jenny come to Coimbra. Together with Pietro, we help work on the house to make it more ecologically-friendly, and start making a permaculture garden. We also sit in deckchairs, pretend to sword-fight, drink hard spirits, and swap war stories into the early hours, while the sun goes down and back up again. We also go to a really cool community south of Coimbra, and meet the people working on green issues and interpersonal relations.
In June/July/August, Chris and Jenny come to Coimbra. Together with Pietro, we plant seeds, sit in deckchairs and pretend to sword-fight. We drink hard spirits and swap war stories into the early hours, while the sun goes down and back up again. Also there we visit for one week the really cool community on the south of Coimbra, we should go there for one week. They work a lot with the green, and with interpersonal relations. All the person that live there have made a COMMITMENT not to leave for 5 years. And regarding the work above, Chris will bring with himself some work, and Pietro will have to work at the Uni, but we shall take some time off, maybe one day every 2 to work on the house, and in the garden. Ah, Chris should bring his really cool book about renovating the earth.

What should be the question about this summer, and should it be binding? by vilfredo
Agreement found between: bob vilfredo